Search Fodder


« 49 Years of the Freedom Charter | Main | Saddam back to Iraq, what are the implications? »

June 28, 2004

Comments

lv

Thank you for sharing your stuff on blog. It is doubtless that we have similar interests. Something are very helpful to me.

uggs.com

this is definately a way to sustain your growth. Who doesn't need more clients? Give it away if you can, and keep traffic coming in!

Visvim

Boots vorgesehen. Sie können als Anteil Clearing Umwandlung identifiziert

werden. Inventory Clearing Umwandlung ist eine Art von Verkauf, der von der

Organisation vorgelegt werden kann, um früher als Visvim Einführung neuer

Sortiment oder neue Ware von Moonboots.

Emu boots

Kampfsport Firmen: Drunken Munky und eine Vielzahl von Bruce Lee und Chuck

Norris Logos Emu Stiefel.
Lustige T-Shirts: Vote for Pedro. Jesus ist mein Homeboy, White Castle.
Net Markennamen: T-Shirt Hell, Caf ยง | Press, Threadless Emu Boots?.
Game Hersteller: Puma, Nike, Adidas, Reebok EMU Australia Boots.

zaBlogger

What Makes Iraq a Sovereign Nation?

from Allister Sparks on the handover

http://www.witness.co.za/showcontent.asp?id=25194&action=full

Trevor

Iraq the model - blog.
http://www.iraqthemodel.blogspot.com/

Robert Frisk in the Star

Restoration of Iraqi sovereignty - or Alice in Wonderland?

http://www.thestar.co.za/index.php?fSectionId=132&fArticleId=2131021

zaBlogger

Browyn at Mzansi Afrika has some comments here, Laurence at Commentary here and Shayne at fifteenminutes here.

I also note that the US has said that the new Iraqi governing council can not impose martial law?

anon

Iraq chaos a result of blinkered arrogance

zaBlogger

Hi Richard,

Japan - not sure this is the same sort of example. Japan attacked America and was soundly beaten by two atomic bombs. In Iraq the invasion was with the main intent of regime change 9there were other reaons but they faded away over the last +15 months), very different but point taken.

Fully free and fair elections in the first half of 2005 - there are many ways for elections to be meaningless, such as violence or rigging as in Zimbabwe. I wish to see neither in any large doses the Iraqi elections of 2005. I fully expect there to be some violence and rigging, but it needs to be on a small insignificant scale.

Withdrawal of foreign troops from Iraq and peace and stability returning to Iraq - I'm not suggesting that the foreign troops are the cause of all the violence albeit they certainly contribute to it? But another concern. The US using troops in Iraq as a beachhead invading other countries on a whim. But I don’t see this happening (see link at the bottom). What if the bad guys get the upper hand and we get another Afganistan?

A reduction in terror attacks & No spreading of the violence to other Middle East states - violence may be moving into Iraq as the front to attack the US but certainly it is also moving out, witness Pakistan, Saudi. But naturally I am referring to repeated attacks against the pipelines, beheadings, car bombs and planes being shoot at. Most likely this will fade away with the US leaving (only really disappearing when the troops have left) but if this continues then I would suggest that the US plan to impose peace and democracy on Iraq would have failed.

As for your criteria - I agree with them 100% but some comments.

internal pressures...for change in Syria, Iran and Saudi Arabia - except that the view is that the US has cut and run and hence has no stomach for the long haul? Surely adding some fodder to some seriously anti US people?

Lastly, I have no desire to see the US defeated, I would just like to see some responsibility from their current leader.

See the article linked to below

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A10539-2004Jun27.html?

Shayne

Right on Richard.

Democracy and capitalism have a way of forcing themselves into peoples' minds. While I'm not very optimistic on Iraq's future as an example of a pristine democracy in the middle-east, I'm pretty sure that, now that the general populace has tasted freedom, it'll be loath to give it up very easily. Iraq will have it's own brand of bastardised democracy, but a relatively peaceful and negotiable entity it will be, unlike Saddam-era Iraq. Which can only be an improvement.

Shaun

How about greater security for Americans? The war was driven by (amoungst other things) a self serving fear brought about by 9/11.

Richard

Is there any example whereby democracy was imposed on a country that had glowing positive results?

Dare we mention Japan? Im sure you know about that example, so why ignore it? There are more than a few other examples. Im sure you can think of one.

As for the measures for a successful invasion;

1. Fully free and fair elections in the first half of 2005. These elections need to represent the voice and ideals of all the Iraqi people

What does this mean? It sounds great, but a democratic vote represents the voice of the majority. (Thankfully, as Im sure a minority would like to see Saddam back in power)

Withdrawal of foreign troops from Iraq and peace and stability returning to Iraq

If peace and stability return then foreign troops could certainly withdraw. You seem to believe that the foreign troops are the sole cause of the violence however, which is a bit naive don’t you think?

A reduction in terror attacks

Crime was and is rampant in the new South African democracy. Is our democracy any less a success because of it? There is a wider conflict in progress in the region, as much as you would like to ignore it. Terror attacks are unlikely to stop as long as countries in the region believe it is in their interest to support the chaos in Iraq.

America is unlikely to withdraw its troops as long as it believes the region poses a serious threat to its security.

No spreading of the violence to other Middle East states (Saudi Arabia, Iran, Syria and even Pakistan)

There seems to be some pretty good evidence that violence in those countries are spreading to Iraq, not the other way around. This region is not going to erupt into peace anytime soon if you haven’t noticed.

How about these criteria for a successful invasion?
- Iraq celebrates ten years of democracy.
- internal pressures, due to the success of Iraq, for change in Syria, Iran and Saudi Arabia force democratic changes in these countries. Terror attacks are no longer the booming business it has become.
- Al Qaida spends all its time and resources hiding as it has spent all its treasure fighting a losing conflict in Iraq and Afghanistan. Islamo-facists are again confined to the minor paragraph of history where they belong.
- Military pressure from America, thanks to their strategic alliance with Iraq, keeps the regions dictators from doing something stupid that gets all their heads blown of (along with all the innocent people held captive by their regimes).

I guess you have to ask yourself, what would you rather see? America defeated, or a safer and saner world? If you believe you cant have the one without the other their is little to debate.

The comments to this entry are closed.